Pass It On

16th Jan 2023, 12:00 AM in Earth's Greatest Un-Team
Pass It On
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Author Notes:

16th Jan 2023, 12:00 AM
Okay, this DEFINITELY pisses me off more than it should, but... why DOES Hawkeye have a gun here?

They made a whole thing in Thor of him choosing to pick up the bow, I could almost rationalize it as a backup weapon and him using it here for the first resort as a clear sign that his actions aren't his own...

Except as far as I can tell, he never uses it again. Even when he runs out of arrows later (and I checked that scene to be sure). Even when he becomes the Ronin and stops using the bow in a symbolic rejection of the Hawkeye identity he picks up a sword.



16th Jan 2023, 12:08 AM
Maybe it's SHIELD protocol to carry a gun on base, but he doesn't carry one otherwise?

Maybe Loki saw he had some trauma against using firearms via the mind gem, so made him pick one up from another agent and use it to fuck with Clint, cause Loki is a little shit sometimes.

Maybe Clint is just better with arrows and swords than he is with guns, which either speaks very highly of his skills or very very poorly of his firearm proficiency.

16th Jan 2023, 11:56 AM
Sound reasoning, Corebrute. Maybe I really am mistaken, but the main reason Hawkeye doesn't regularly use firearms* apply IRL: Rule of Cool and the always fun "political" side of things. As in, how the audience will react. Huh, wonder if it at least in part had anything to do with the Comics Code Authority from back in the day? I don't even remember the scene TheScarlettTroll is talking about from Thor that explains why the Marvel Cinematic Universe's Hawkeye "took up the bow". ^^' Anyone want to give me a quick rundown, that would be appreciated!

In the world of tabletop RPGs, there are plenty of reasons to use an archer. After writing this post, it still favors firearms unless they

1) Don't (or don't yet) exist in the setting.
2) The laws or supply issues within the setting make a bow and arrow the superior choice.

Whether sticking to the real-world or trying fantastical settings, unless there's something in the rules or settings to force archery onto a level playing field with similarly skilled firearms usage, seems like the latter has the edge. No disrespect to archers or fans of archery intended; I'm talking about practical combat (hunting, war, etc.) usage. I used to have a few reasons, but I realized the holes in my logic today. Yay?

Addendum: Clint Barton does seem like he gets lowballed by people. He's a "mundane" human, but an exceptional one with respect to his abilities and training, and (in the films) with SHIELD training and connections to back him up. While Character Point totals in the high 3-digits/low 4-digits are usually reserved for superheroes or demigods, there are some realistic humans who flirt with those totals; people who are blessed to have high (perhaps even maximum) Attribute scores backed with extensive training and/or social connections. On top of that, RPGs like GURPS have varying rules depending on the "tone" or "style" of the game. "Gritty realism" (a.k.a. Harsh Realism) tries to reflect the real-world as much as possible, even when that can bog down gameplay. Regular "Realistic" has more allowances for a fun game and good storytelling. "Cinematic" realism skews even further in the name of fun and storytelling, but without being overtly unreal. "Four-Color" is designed to reflect how reality works in things like comic books, while "Silly" is for the most cartoony of cartoon realities.

Hawkeye is probably on par, physically and in terms of training, with real-world Special Forces soldiers. In versions like the MCU, he may even has similar or better social connections; Allies, Contacts, Legal Enforcement Powers, etc. Being a "superhero" in a fanciful world, he's probably allowed to be better than a human realistically could be, so long as it doesn't break suspension of disbelief for a "normal" human to be that way.

*Well, some versions of him do or did. I vaguely recall that being part of his "Ultimate" line's armory
16th Jan 2023, 5:59 PM
Off Duty Rules Lawyer
Hawkeye always gets the "Aquaman" treatment (Curse thy bones Super Friends!) which leads me to question if Green Arrow managed to avoid that because he had other factors or if he was just that obscure (CW gave him his own show...which ended up making him Batman). Batman never gets this crap except completely ironically BECAUSE HE'S BATMAN! I guess people innately think of bows as out dated Weapons when guns exist. I mean even Batmans main weapon is a custom boomerang which has the bonus of being self-replenishing ammo.
17th Jan 2023, 10:08 PM
I think it's just people don't care as much about Green Arrow because he's not... quite as high-profile? Like Hawkeye was elevated by this movie bringing him up to "founding Avenger" status whereas Green Arrow isn't generally that high up on the DC hierarchy

I think Arrow's probably the most exposure he's had since the JLU days, and (as someone who sat through almost three seasons of Arrow)... if you're into Arrow there's much bigger things to worry about than "isn't this guy running around with a bow kind of goofy?".

Although the answer to that question is still yes and nowhere I think is that better illustrated than the third episode where Oliver just goes running up to guys firing automatic weaponry at him so he can shoot them with arrows.
17th Jan 2023, 10:57 PM
I think part of the reason Arrow got made was:
1) Popularity of Green Arrow in Smallville, where he was basically the Batman of the group
2) Not allowed to use Batman in a live action series for some reason.
17th Jan 2023, 10:03 PM
Oh, it wasn't an explanation why or anything, there's no big Hawkeye origin scene in Thor or anything. It's just in his cameo scene when he's gearing up they put a lot of focus on him reaching for a gun and then grabbing the bow instead. Felt like it was a decently emphatic rejection considering that he (almost except for here) never uses them otherwise.

You won't hear me argue against Hawkeye's usefulness or abilities, man shot something out of the sky without even looking at it.
17th Jan 2023, 11:12 PM
I think the Timely System, the one used for this setting, may have more classes and feats related to archery than firearms. Given it's designed to play multiple genres and time periods, archery is more likely to fit in a setting than firearms. Taking all these feats and classes,(S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent/Divine Marksman/Arcane Archer multiclass) you can see how Jeremey could have power built Clint by taking the best stuff from various splat books.

Also look at the use of guns in the MCU. Yes lots of people do use them, but no one does any gun tricks with them, no gun katas, nothing. Even Winter Soldier usually finds hitting something with his fist or knife more effective than his rifle, except when mowing down mobs like in Infinity War. Black Widow's thighs have taken down more foes than her pistols. The only character who seems to prefer using firearms and uses them effectively, is Rocket Racoon, and his firearms are all tricked out for maximum damage cause he's probably an inventor class like Tony.

I feel firearms just don't do enough damage or can hit the AC of most major/named opponents, so they're not great as a primary weapon.

Basically I think firearms are just underpowered and cheap in Timely System, hence why so few players use them as a primary weapon and why an archer build actually makes sense.
17th Jan 2023, 9:54 PM
All fair and valid possibilities.

Nonetheless, I remain angry about it. XD
17th Jan 2023, 12:48 PM
Nick Furry
Hey, Clint! I have a new arrow for you. It's very useful; It's called gun arrow. You can even shoot it without a bow!
17th Jan 2023, 10:09 PM
Ahhhh, I see your gun arrow and raise you a bullet bow!

... Or is that just a big slingshot?
18th Jan 2023, 1:56 AM
Nick Furry
There are characters that do wonders with a slingshot, like Ussop from One Piece.
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