22nd May 2023, 12:00 AM in Earth's Greatest Un-Team
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Load my Place Save my Place

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22nd May 2023, 12:00 AM
I thought about cutting this part and skipping to the next page, buuuuut I do still feel bad about cutting Widow's "beat up the goons" scene earlier. So even with the Hawkeye fight coming up I figured I should keep it. Staying ahead of the Hulk, even for a bit, is no small feat.


22nd May 2023, 7:24 AM
It's weird they keep saying survival, when I always assumed finding a hidden person would be a perception skill. Which would have made the Thor quote "I don't have any perception" explain a whole lot.
22nd May 2023, 8:30 AM
I (and consequently Sarah) figured Survival made more sense, since Nat's put enough distance between herself and Hulk (and both are out of sight for Thor), Hulk's using Survival to track which way she went rather than looking for her directly.

Thor could be using either or, a Hulk trail isn't exactly hard to spot since it usually involves a bunch of wrecked stuff. XD
22nd May 2023, 10:56 AM
Okay, I'm gonna nerd out on a TTRPG system difference here between GURPS and d20-ish/D&D-ish (can't remember exactly what the strip runs on). Though the length this time is me covering a bunch of general GURPS stuff first, because I'm not sure if my actual focus would make sense without the proper context. I will try something new, though, and put all that information in a follow-up post.

In GURPS, the "Survival" Skills are based on PER, and all are Average (A) Skills. I find this works out pretty well, especially compared to how it worked in previous editions, where Survival was based on IQ (still Average, though). It makes it easier to build realistic or even simply verisimilitudinous animal characters, without having to give them unnaturally high IQ scores, or use other "cheats" to give them a high enough Survival Skill to - y'know - survive. :) If that sounds odd, keep in mind that the CP spent on raising the Survival Skill above its default score represents the "learning" of the Skill, whether you were taught the skill in an academic setting or in the field. So I think I prefer this approach to basing it on Wisdom, but I cannot be certain given how little I've played D&D (or similar TTRPGs).

Oh, and regardless, this probably wouldn't be a Survival check to find Black Widow. A Perception Check, or maybe a Tracking (also a PER/A Skill) roll. One of the legitimate criticisms of GURPS is that it suffers from Skill bloat. Trying to think through this scenario in GURPS terms reminded me of that issue. Tracking really feels like a specific application of the relevant Survival Skill, which means it may be better represented as a Technique.
22nd May 2023, 11:41 AM
Okay, now for the background information, in case the above looks like total gibberish. Most of this is pulled directly from GURPS Lite.

GURPS was - and still is - designed around four core Attributes. Since the game uses Character Points to "buy" improvements to your characters, you can spend CP to raise those Attributes above the base score of 10, or receive CP back to lower them.

Strength (ST) measures physical power and bulk.
Dexterity (DX) measures a combination of agility, coordination, and fine motor ability.
Intelligence (IQ) broadly measures brainpower, including creativity, intuition, memory, perception, reason, sanity, and willpower.
Health measures energy and vitality.

Next are the secondary characteristics derived from the four Attributes. The baseline score is derived from the character's relevant Attribute, but it too can be raised or lowered through spending CP.

Hit Points (HP) represent your body’s ability to sustain injury. You have HP equal to your ST.
Will (no abbreviation) Will measures your ability to withstand psychological stress and your resistance to supernatural attacks. Will is equal to IQ.
Perception (PER) represents your general alertness. The GM makes a “Sense roll” against your PER to determine whether you notice something. PER equals IQ.
Fatigue Points (FP) represent your body’s “energy supply.” You have FP equal to your HT.
Basic Speed (no abbreviation) is a measure of your reflexes and general physical quickness. To calculate Basic Speed, add your HT and DX together, and then divide the total by 4. Do not round it off. A 5.25 is better than a 5!

There are a few more, but I think these will suffice for this explanation. Why not just stick to the core four? GURPS aspires to handle realistic settings and characters, in addition to fantastic and fictional ones. While there's a limit to the resolution of GURPS, like how lifting a single pound more than someone else doesn't mean you have a higher ST score, and there are enough people where their secondary characteristics are going to vary from the core Attribute(s) from which they were derived. IQ being the "good bad" example. Your IQ, Will, and PER start out equal to each other, but you probably don't have to think too hard to recall someone who is very intelligent, but weak-willed, or who is intelligent but is especially perceptive. This way, your mad scientist may be a weak-willed genius who can only notice the obvious, instead of being them having to be a strong-willed, highly perceptive genius.

Next up is covering the basics of Skills in GURPS. A “skill” is a particular kind of knowledge; for instance, karate, physics, auto mechanics, or a death spell. Every skill is separate, though some skills help you to learn others. A number called “skill level” measures your ability with each of your skills: the higher the number, the greater your skill. That skill level is based on three things:

-The controlling Attribute (or Will or PER)
-The amount of CP invested in learning the Skill
-The Skill's difficulty

Yeah, Skills can have different difficulties. Average Skills are twice as expensive to learn as Easy Skills, and thus cost twice as much CP to reach the same skill level as Easy Skills. Hard Skills are twice as expensive as Average Skills, and Very Hard Skills are twice as expensive as Hard Skills. Some Skills require taking a specialty for it. Survival is one such Skill; Survival (Artic) is different than Survival (Jungle). Fortunately, all these Survival specializations can default from each other. Using a Skill at default is when you use it while having no CP invested in it. For example, all the Survival Skills all default to PER-5. Most also default to each other at -3, which usually gives a better default than the one from the Attribute.

Why PER instead of IQ? The change was made because just being a Skill already means the "knowledge" aspect of Survival is being addressed. When you use it most of the time, though, you're worried about hearing/seeing/smelling what you need to obtain/avoid in order to survive in that environ. While there is a "controlling Attribute" associated with each Skill, when appropriate the GM will have you roll your Skill based on a different Attribute. Actually surviving on a mountain, for example, would require a Survival (Mountain) roll, based on PER like normal. However, if you're needing to answer a hypothetical question about how to handle surviving on a mountain, you're probably making a Survival (Mountain) roll based on IQ instead of PER. If you're specifically trying to move a large rock out of your way without causing an avalanche, it might be a Survival (Mountain) roll based on your ST!
23rd May 2023, 2:15 AM
Off Duty Rules Lawyer
In D&D/Pathfinder Perception is a skill under Wisdom, Survival is also under Wisdom. The other Wisdom skills are Heal/Medicine and Sense Motive. In Pathfinder the ability scores add modifiers every 2 points past 10 (the default/standard) to their derived skills and saving throws. So a character with 12 Wisdom and 3 points in perception effectively has 4 points in perception. Will also exists but not as a skill, its a saving through and is responsible for the same resistance.
D&D/Pathfinder have two more attributes than GURPS Wisdom (because Faith casters needed to have a separate main attribute from Wizards lest the multi-classing utterly destroy the game with its insane power), and Charisma, everyone's favorite dump stat, Charisma has always had the problem of being basically useless for Classes that weren't centered around it (which themselves sometimes had problems being useful *COUGH* BARD *COUGH*) but it also exists for all those pesky social skills. I'm assuming that these attributes are all subsumed into IQ in GURPS. Charisma is also weird in that when 3rd Edition created Sorcerers it made them Charisma based under the excuse that Charisma represented a characters Willpower, eventhough Will saves were still under Wisdom. Though being fair it does make sense to have Wilpower separated from Wisdom since being stubborn isn't usually considered a trait of the wise but can fit perfectly with a force of personality.
"Hit Points (HP) represent your body’s ability to sustain injury. You have HP equal to your ST." Wait I thought Health would be like Constitution but you're saying it's not tied to Hit Points? What is it used for then?
23rd May 2023, 12:34 PM


Thank you for explaining how D&D/Pathfinder handle things. It does raise some more questions for me, if you're willing to explain further. I'll also address your own question. Before I forget, though, I wanted to point out that GURPS Lite is a free .pdf you can download from Warehouse23 (GURPS official online store). You don't have to! I'm just going to be quoting from it a lot, so I wanted you to know it was available if you're interested. I also hope you see this, since you won't be getting a Notification of new responses to your comments (something you get by signing up for Comic Fury). Since I'm addressing so many things, I'm going to break this up into multiple, separate comments.

First, some clean up on core mechanics of GURPS, as I think they're relevant. Advantages and Disadvantages are similar to Feats and Flaws in D&D (I think). An “advantage” is a useful trait that gives you a mental, physical, or social “edge” over someone else who otherwise has the same abilities as you. Each advantage has a cost in character points. This is fixed for some advantages; others can be bought in “levels,” at a cost per level (e.g. Acute Vision costs 2 points/level, so if you want Acute Vision 6, you must pay 12 points). Advantages with “Variable” cost are more complicated; read the advantage description for details. A “disadvantage” is a problem or imperfection that renders you less capable than your attributes, advantages, and skills would indicate. I believe they're similar (if not the same thing as) Feats and Flaws in D&D/Pathfinder. Disadvantages are usually listed with a negative Character Point value; you get points you can spend elsewhere by taking them.

I probably should have just listed how investing CP in Skills works in GURPS. For Very Hard Skills, 1 CP lets you learn it at a Skill level equal to the controlling Attribute less 3. 2 CP means knowing it at "-2", 4 CP at "-1", and 8 CP to learn it at a level equal to the controlling Attribute. For every further 4 CP, you'd get a +1 bonus. Hard Skills are the same except 1 CP buys you a Skill Level equal to the controlling Attribute less 2, 2CP buys it at Attribute-1, 4 CP at Attribute, and every further 4 CP buys another +1. Average Skills maintain this progression: 1 CP buys the Skill at a level equal to Attribute-1, 2 for Attribute, 4 for Attribute +1, and an additional +1 for every further 4 CP invested. Easy Skills are learned at a level equal to the controlling Attribute for just 1 CP, at Attribute+1 for 2 CP, at Attribute+2 for 4 CP, and a further +1 for every 4 CP invested after that. I erred when I said the costs doubled for each harder difficulty in my previous comment! That holds true for how much CP is required to reach a Skill Level equal to the controlling Attribute (or Secondary Characteristic), but not the overall progression. Default Skill use is also possible in many instances; as long as the general gist of what you need to do is understood by your character, you can attempt to use Skill without having invested any CP into it. Of course, you're usually rolling at the relevant [Attribute-5 in] order to do so; some are worse, and some don't have a default use at all. Sometimes, one Skill will have a default from a different Skill, because they're closely related.
23rd May 2023, 12:35 PM
Which brings us back to Perception in GURPS. GURPS does have rules to improve your character through study: while primarily for Skills, raising Attributes (and sometimes learning certain Advantages) is also possible. However, I want to see if D&D/Pathfinder "Perception" might better correlate to some Skill(s) in GURPS. Observation (PER/A) is a skill for observing dangerous or “interesting” situations without letting others know that you are watching. Use this skill to monitor a location, a group of people, or your immediate surroundings for concealed or tactically significant details. Search is the Skill for searching people, baggage, and vehicles for items that aren’t in plain sight. The GM rolls once – in secret – per item of interest. For deliberately concealed items, this is a Quick Contest of your Search skill vs. the Holdout or Smuggling skill used to hide the item. If you fail, the GM simply says, “You found nothing.” I alluded to it before, but while you need to invest CP to know a Skill, as long as you have a grasp of the most basic of fundamentals, you can still attempt a default use. Observation and Search both default to PER-5. So, if your Perception score was 13, and you wanted to use Observation without having invested any CP in it, you'd be trying to roll an 8 or less to use Observation by default. Even having 1 CP invested in these Skills improves your odds dramatically; 1 CP in an Average Skill gives you a Skill level of [Attribute - 1]; sticking with the PER 13 example, now that person would be rolling against a 12 instead of an 8. 2 CP would mean Observation known at a level equal to your PER; 4 CP would be PER+1, and every further 4 CP would be another +1.
23rd May 2023, 12:35 PM
Moving onto Will. It is used similarly in GURPS, though there are some Skills where Will is the controlling stat, like Intimidation (WILL/A).

Now let's discuss D&D/Pathfinder's Wisdom Attribute, and how GURPS basically combines D&D/Pathfiner's Wisdom and Intelligence Attributes. How does GURPS model a foolish but intelligent Character, or a wise but not-especially-intelligent one? Advantages and Disadvantages. Examples: Lightning Calculator means, regardless of your IQ, you can perform mathematical computations on par with a basic calculator quickly, in your head. Or a high IQ character may have the Impulsiveness Disadvantage, causing them to foolishly rush into a variety of situations. Is that better than how D&D does it? I'm honestly not sure. ^^' Now, does GURPS keep this from becoming OP? Eh, some argue that it doesn't. XP However, something I left out is that not all Attributes have the same CP cost in GURPS. ST and HT both cost +/- 10 CP/level; DX and IQ cost +/-20 CP/Level. There's also Talents. This is a category of Advantage; Talents grant +1/level to a set of related Skills. From 6 (or fewer) Skills being worth 5 CP/level, to 7-12 Skills being worth 10/level, to 13+ Skills being worth 15/level. No, you cannot just throw the X Skills you need into a group, call it a Talent, and power game. There needs to be a rhyme and reason behind the Talent. Also, there is typically a limit on how much Talent one can buy; if you're versatile in such a wide range of Skills, you might even be better off just buying your Attributes up, thus raising all those Skills and then some by a level. XP
23rd May 2023, 1:01 PM
Which ties into how GURPS avoids multi-class characters becoming OP? GURPS doesn't have Character Classes. Well, GURPS Dungeon Fantasy might; that subline exists to be "D&D by GURPS". Getting good costs CP. If you want a character who is good at combat ("warrior") and can sling spells, you can do that so long as it fits the setting and the campaign concept. You'll be splitting your Character Points into more things, though, so you won't be as good of a fighter or mage as you would have been if you'd focused on one or the other. How "magic" works also matters. GURPS has a variety of approaches to magic; they may coexist within the same setting, only some may exist, or even none may exist! The default magic system in GURPS ties into Talents, hence me bringing it up. Magery is a specialized form of "Talent" in GURPS; there's a 0 (zero) Level that still costs 5 CP. After that, it is 10 CP per level. Spells are Skills, all being IQ/H or IQ/VH to learn. Most Spells have Prerequisites, which are other Skills, or sometimes IQ/Advantage requirements you have to meet in order to learn/use them. Spells also have Energy costs (to cast (and sometimes to maintain), which are marked off of your Fatigue Points (FP). Some may have additional requirements (material components). Most Spells require at least Magery 0 to use; those that don't can be cast by non-mages but only in High or Very High Mana areas (which tend to be rare, and the latter also dangerous).

As with other Talents, your Level of Magery gives a bonus to the controlling Attribute for a Skill (in this case, IQ). So IQ 12 plus Magery Lv2 means you learn Spells as if you had IQ 14. High Skill in Spells come with massive bonuses. You can go from needing to loudly speak the spell's incantation, while performing the correct movements, to eventually just seeming to stare silently and still being able to cast the Spell. Likewise, casting time and Energy required are reduced. Spells are divided into Colleges of related Spells; some mages are only able to use from a particular college. This reduces the cost of their form of Magery, and... remember how I said CP being spread too thin was a partial balance for "wizard" versus "warrior"? The same can apply here; a Mage focused on a single College will likely have the CP to invest in the more potent Spells, the ones that have higher base Energy Costs and more Perquisites. The default magic system for GURPS has its proponents and its critics. I tend to fall into the latter camp. It generally works best when magic is central to the campaign, so everyone is going to be a mage, or invest in what they need to counter mages/magic. It is an advanced, optional rule, but mana can also have an "aspect" that makes it work better with certain colleges but work worse with other colleges. E.g. Water-aspected mana might count as "high mana" for water Spells, "low mana" for Fire Spells, and normally for the rest. Divine Spellcasters, by default, use the same system as Mages except they need Power Investiture, not Magery. They also don't usually have to worry about mana levels, though they might have to worry about "sanctity" levels, or some similar alternate mechanic. "Might" in this case because it is literally optional (as opposed to me not knowing XD). There may also be additional requirements based on the object of your faith, or the organization of their church.

I prefer the GURPS Powers, approach; you build your divine spellcaster, your spirit user, your wizard, etc. the same as you'd build your super-powered human, your chi-fueled martial artist, your psychic, etc. By which I mean you select the appropriate Advantages, then apply the appropriate Modifiers to them. Modifiers? Ugh, forgot I'd need to explain that. Modifiers are used in GURPS to tailor Advantages and Disadvantages. Enhancements increase the scope of the trait, while Limitations reduce it. For example, when I mentioned Magery restricted to one college? That's a Limitation you can take on Magery, reducing its cost. "Power Modifiers" are a subclass of Modifiers that are usually Limitations. "Magical" means the Power works following the rules for magic; traits with this stop working in no mana zones, and have to worry about other things that affect magic. Additional Modifiers can be applied so that your Powers work more like traditional Magic Spells, but that's better saved for later (or not at all). If this sounds odd... this makes it so much easier to keep the characters (and their powers) balanced. This also means that the ability to fly, whether you're an alien superhero, ultra-tech using time traveler, a human psychic, an eleven mage, or ascended martial arts master... the core aspect of it works the same, but where the differences matter? They're defined.

I'll get to the rest of later, Off Duty Rules Lawyer. I kind of blew my whole morning typing these up. Oops. >.>
23rd May 2023, 1:32 PM
Wow. "Decompression", indeed! 😜
23rd May 2023, 2:19 PM
Still responding to my own post, just to keep all of this together. I did read your latest comments, Off Duty Rules Lawyer, and am still digesting them. Also Cedric13sai's comment, which I also appreciate. ;)

My understanding of Charisma in D&D/Pathfinder is that it represents two different things in GURPS. Yeah, the opposite of how it seems to work for everything else. GURPS has your character's Appearance, which isn't just a description of how your character looks, but what it means in terms of game mechanics. Your character may also have Charisma, your have a natural ability to impress and lead others. So, what Attribute/Secondary Characteristic do they fall under?

None of them.


Well, if you want to get technical, they bonuses/penalties from both are listed together under "Reaction Modifiers" on your Character Sheet, but they're officially listed under your Advantages or Disadvantages. Specifically, Appearance can range from the Disadvantage "Hideous" (You have any sort of disgusting looks you can come up with: a severe skin disease, wall-eye . . . preferably several things at once), to the neutral Trait (worth zero points) "Average", up to the Advantage "Very Beautiful/Handsome" (You could win beauty contests – regularly). No, these aren't all the possible Appearances, but they can keep for later as I'm already amazed (and grateful) if you've made it this far, given how much information I'm throwing at you. Likewise, the listing of the traits include the mechanical ramifications (mostly Reaction Modifiers that affect how NPCs react to you). Charisma is an Advantage were 5 CP/level, and each level granting a +1 reaction modifier. There is no such thing as "negative Charisma" in GURPS; one of the reasons it is an Advantage and not an Attribute/Secondary Characteristic. There are some Disadvantages that may be likened unto negative Charisma, but strictly speaking, they're not. Charisma can be pretty powerful in GURPS. Some settings may have forms of magic or other powers that are fueled by Charisma. GURPS Basic Set itself has some mystical "bardic" Skills that require yo have at least Charisma 1 to use, though I don't know how popular they are (I've never used them).

The true power of Charisma is how it helps you influence NPCs. Charisma is not a Talent, but it fakes it quite well. I haven't touched on Reaction Rolls yet. They're actually optional; the GM can predetermine how NPCs ought to react to the party, but even then, Charisma is supposed to be taken into account. When using them, Reaction Rolls (along with damage rolls) are exception to GURPS normal "low is better" rule; you want to roll high for Reaction (and damage) rolls. Again, to avoid even more bloat, I won't list the various outcomes, but +5 is will shift the results by one or two categories. This is better than it sounds; if there are no negative modifiers, the worst the NPCs will react to you is "Poor", and you've got a 62.5% chance of at least a "Good" reaction. This is pretty much a must for the party's "face", unless you lack one. GURPS has five influence Skills: Diplomacy (IQ/H), Fast-Talk (IQ/A), Intimidation (WILL/A), Savoir-Faire (IQ/E), and Sex Appeal (HT/A). There are pros and cons to each version, with the more "budget friendly" options having more restrictions or greater risks. Anyway, instead of a random reaction roll, you can substitute a Skill check using the appropriate Influence roll... and your Charisma will still give you a bonus to that roll! There are many other Advantages that can contribute in this area. Remember Appearance? As long as the NPC doesn't already have a reason to dislike you, an above Average Appearance provides a bonus as well. Given how GURPS combat works, and the fact that GURPS has a supplement (GURPS Social Engineering) for games where the "action" is actually in the social/political maneuvering more than (or completely instead of) combat.

Does this sound better or worse to you, Off Duty Rules Lawyer, than how D&D/Pathfinder does things? I can see pros and cons to both. I'll also tack on here that I sometimes think Appearance should be tied into one or more of the core Attributes (mostly health), basically turning it into a Secondary Characteristic.
23rd May 2023, 2:45 PM
At last, I can explain why Hit Points are based on Strength in GURPS!

Originally, this was not the case; as you would expect, in First Edition, Second Edition, and Third Edition, Hit Points were based on Health. They weren't even called Hit Points back then; your HT score was just listed as a fraction, with the top number going down as you took damage. While not the reason for basing HP on ST, the multiple meanings for "HT" (sometimes your Health Attribute, sometimes your current amount of hit points) made many rules more confusing. >.> Basing HP on ST was an optional rule in Third Edition, Revised, and became the norm with Fourth Edition (back in 2004).

So why?

1) To better balance Strength versus Health

2) Reality-checking, to some extent

As stated way, waaay earlier, Strength (ST) measures physical power and bulk in GURPS. Even if we'd started calling Hit Points "HP" in older editions, you still would have the issue of creatures like elephants having to buy massive amounts of Hit Points, because they could obviously take a lot more damage than their base Health Attribute would indicate... numbers that often resembled their Strength (ST) Attribute. Animals like rats had the opposite problem; they're hardy little buggers, so they'd have a high Health Attribute, but few Hit Points, so their HP also was a lot closer to their Strength. This also means that for many animals and even objects, mass and Hit Points are at least loosely related. How Hit Points are an abstraction of how one's body reacts to damage is also pertinent. At a glance, being healthier sounds like it should let you take more damage, but thinking about it, how Health interacts with damage is covered by various other rules, like rolling to avoid passing out or dying once you're sufficiently injured. While I'm certain you can find humans that - in GURPS terms - have high ST scores with low HP (and vice versa), tying HP to ST seems to match reality as much or more than tying HP to HT.

So what does Health give you? Mainly Fatigue Points: FP is to your body's capacity to handle exertion as HP is to your body's capacity to handle injury. I mean, besides contributing to Base Speed (mentioned way earlier), and being the Attribute for Consciousness checks, Death Checks, seeing if you resist disease, poison, "powers" that target the body more than the mind, recovering from physical stun, etc. Strength actually contributes to some stuff I didn't have time/space to mention earlier, like Basic Damage and Basic Lift. I mean, Basic Damage was implied, but it is easy to forget about Basic Lift, which is how your Encumbrance Level thresholds are calculated. The big thing is, HP is a little more valuable than FP in GURPS. Literally, in Fourth Edition, HP costs +/- 2 CP/level, while FP costs 3 CP/level.

Last thing, while the changes to HP and FP were still optional rules in GURPS Third Edition (Revised), we tried a homebrew alternative for a game or two. Instead of having FP or HP equal to just ST or HT, we took a cue from Basic Speed and made

FP = [(ST + HT)/2]

HP = [(ST + HT)/2]

It was... okay. However, with more things interconnected in Fourth Edition, the Rules As Written definitely work better.
23rd May 2023, 3:58 PM
Off Duty Rules Lawyer
Ah so Health maintains the 'Fortitude saves' half of Constitution from D&D/Pathfinder. I do think that in systems where Hit Points are combined with Strength the stat should be renamed "Might" but that's just pedantry on my part. I think negative Charisma is an important factor in roleplay, not just because it's a dump stat I can easily drop to min-max but because one of the best D&D characters is the epitome of it, that's right everyone's favorite, Hourglass-eyed, Golden-Skinned, Sickly and Wasting Raistlin Majere! granted a Raistlin build also means dumping Constitution but the point is, it does work for showing off the negative aspect, a lot of the reaction role stuff is also in D&D/Pathfinder here's the table for Diplomacy
"Starting Attitude: Diplomacy DC
Hostile: 25+ creature’s Cha Modifier
Unfriendly: 20+ creature’s Cha Modifier
Indifferent: 15+ creature’s Cha Modifier
Friendly: 10+ creature’s Cha Modifier
Helpful: 0+ creature’s Cha Modifier" Note DC means Difficulty Class, which means that's the number you're rolling against so at minimum you have to get over 25 to convince a hostile, and woe upon you if that hostile has over 11 points in Charisma. Oh just for fun here's the Bluff table
"Circumstances: Bluff Modifier
The target wants to believe you: +5
The lie is believable: +0
The lie is unlikely: –5
The lie is far-fetched: –10
The lie is impossible: –20
The target is drunk or impaired: +5
You possess convincing proof up to: +10" Newer additions have Deception as it's own skill like Fast-Talk but for the most part its either Diplomacy or Bluff for that. No equivalent for Sex Appeal (there was an attempt for the later with the "Comeliness" skill/attribute) but there is a disguise skill with its own tables so Savoir-Faire isn't left out. As I stated earlier Charisma already modifies skills involved so effectively there's little difference between the two systems here as from not going into the red
Arguably, Charisma peaked in BECMI where it could not only be used to command henchmen but lead forces (those were the days where every class got a base at mid level), BECMI based games like Adventurer, Conquerer, King make use of this.
23rd May 2023, 1:45 PM
Off Duty Rules Lawyer
As for how Perception is handled, the Observation example I think would split into two skill checks one for Stealth (a Dexterity skill) and one for Perception itself, the official description of Perceptions states "Perception has a number of uses, the most common of which is an opposed check versus an opponent’s Stealth check to notice the opponent and avoid being surprised. If you are successful, you notice the opponent and can react accordingly. If you fail, your opponent can take a variety of actions, including sneaking past you and attacking you." in regards to Search in GURPS the Perception skill also states
"Perception is also used to notice fine details in the environment. The DC to notice such details varies depending upon distance, the environment, and how noticeable the detail is. The following table gives a number of guidelines."
But to get to the comic and why it used Survival while you can find tracks with Perception you need Survival to actually know how to follow them "Follow Tracks: To find tracks or to follow them for 1 mile requires a successful Survival check. You must make another Survival check every time the tracks become difficult to follow. If you are not trained in this skill, you can make untrained checks to find tracks, but you can follow them only if the DC for the task is 10 or lower. Alternatively, you can use the Perception skill to find a footprint or similar sign of a creature’s passage using the same DCs, but you can’t use Perception to follow tracks, even if someone else has already found them." The rest of the skill is about surviving natural hazards and not getting lost, with a retry rule included. In other words Perception is what you roll while the GM prepares their most ominous "you don't see(/hear/notice) anything" again since Perception is a skill directly instead of a derived stat it doesn't have knock on effects on other skills.
Back to Attributes they do cost more and more points in point buy past a certain threshold, so getting to 18 would cost two attribute points instead of one. This is only in character creation the Attribute points gotten from leveling are always 1 spent = 1 point gained. As implied by name attribute points are different from Skill points, while Skill points are gotten every level, attribute points can only be expected every 4 levels... out of 20 so again role specialization and character/class certainty. In Pathfinder there's a traits and drawbacks system instead of flaws, so a drawback doesn't net an extra Feat instead it provides an extra trait.
Of course the majority of drawbacks focus on adding negative modifiers like Anxious "You take a –2 penalty on Diplomacy checks and must speak slowly due to the concentration required. Unless stated otherwise, you are assumed to not be speaking at a volume above a whisper." again mix and match with high Charisma character (Bluff and Intimidate are their own skills, so you can imagine a nervous wreck who can bluff and bluster with the best of them but can't quite ask that girl out) but you also have more unique ones like Insatiable "Goods and services cost you 10% more (and can’t be paid for by allies), and you need twice as much food and liquid as normal for the purposes of preventing starvation and thirst."
23rd May 2023, 1:44 PM
Off Duty Rules Lawyer
Thanks for responding, I do check back at comments I've left from time to time. You do get skill points (like CPs) in D&D/Pathfinder, though how you go about getting a negative value is having a negative modifier and no or less points invested in the skill than the negative modifier, to get a negative modifier is the inverse of a positive one, instead of every 2 points above 10 it's every 2 points bellow character with 8 Charisma has by default -1 Diplomacy. One thing I've neglected to say is that since this is a character class system, classes add their own modifiers, usually these bolster/incentivize the primary stat of the class but not always, for instance in editions where "Knowledge (Religion)" was an INT skill, Clerics would still get positive modifiers for it. Of course these modifiers are additive the system exists to encourage role specialization. Team-play and all. Skills just go up in points but since you only have 20 levels in total, The max is effectively 20+whatever combination of modifiers results from your Attributes, Class, (enchanted) Equipment and whatever buff spell you have on you at any given moment.
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